Evan Wong (00:00):

Welcome to go with the workflow where we interview world-class leaders in legal and experts in workflow automation to learn from their hard earned experiences in making work more efficient and more meaningful. Today, my guest is Saren. Chum. Saren is the senior manager of legal contract operations and digital transformation at Allion Technology, a global medical devices company that owns well-known brands like Invisalign. Saren has spent over a decade supporting Ian's legal department, starting as a contract admin, moving into legal operations for contracts, and now looking after a much broader digital transformation effort together with workflow. Now, what's really exciting about having Saren on this episode is she hasn't just bought workflow automation. She's an actual hands-on user of it and leads that effort behind a global organization. So she brings a very valuable perspective that I'm excited to share with you. She also makes a mean fried rice, so I've heard though I'm yet to have the privilege to try it myself.

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(01:06):

In this episode, we talk about the workflows Align has built, and why they've chosen to build some of these in a workflow tool instead of A CLM. We get into the details on what the day-to-day might look like for someone who is leading a no-code workflow programme, the early journey, the different stakeholders you work with, and how to best leverage your vendor. We also talk about the importance of early success, getting buy-in and even getting an understanding of what a hackathon might look like and why it can be a powerful tool for adoption and scaling. It was such a fun conversation and I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did.

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(01:46):

Alrighty, welcome. Welcome to another episode of Go With the Workflow. I'm super excited to have you all here again. As always, I'm super excited when we see new faces drop into attendance, but also some old faces. Hello, Tommy, I see you there. Unfortunately, that's not really two-way communication today, but it's good to see some old faces as well. This is a special episode I'm really excited to have with me, Saren today. Saren Charm. This session is all about building and leading in an organization's workflow automation programme. If you've never met me before, my name is Evan. I am the co-founder and CEO of Checkbox. We're a workflow automation company, but I want to give a bit of a shout out to Saren here. She is the senior manager of legal contract operations and digital transformation at Align technology. If you've never heard of Align before, I'm sure you've heard of some of their brands like Invisalign, they consumer brand, where they've been the pioneer in clear orthodontic aligners.

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(02:52):

I was one of those kids who actually went through college quite late with braces on, so I wish I actually had a line back then. I was one of the silly ones that didn't. But what's exciting about having Saren on today is that she hasn't just purchased workflow automation technology. She is actually hands-on as the user of it and leads the transformation efforts behind it in a global organization. So I'm super excited from her perspective. Apparently she also makes a mean fried rice, which I've heard of, but I'm yet to still have the privilege to try myself. So Saren, thank you for being here. Welcome to the show.

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Saren Chum (03:29):

Thank you, Evan, for having me. I'm excited for this.

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Evan Wong (03:34):

Awesome. Well, seriously, let's start with your career because I think you've had a pretty interesting background into legal ops. You haven't always been legal, right, but you've always had a focus on process and operations. So tell us a little bit about your story, how you ended up in the position that you are today.

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Saren Chum (03:54):

Sure, Evan, but before I share the story about how I got here, I'd just like to talk a little bit about my current responsibilities and how the experience and skills I've learned from my previous roles helped me transition into my current role. So my main objective in my role is to manage the contract process for the legal department, either to implement or provide, to gather guidance on ways to simplify, streamline and automate our processes. Sorry, our goal is to reduce unnecessary touch points, whether leveraging the current tools that we have in place or updating our policies and giving us the capacity to scale. So how did I get here? So before I aligned, I worked in HR and sales, and I actually worked for Align in the HR department about 13 to 14 years ago, and then moved into sales before coming back to the line and joining the legal department. In my HR and sales role, I helped design processes and when I was in sales, I helped redesign their company website in both areas. The focus was on the user experience and journey, streamlined workflows, processes, and design, which are all transferable to what I do now in legal, and I'm just continuing to build upon those skills and experience.

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Evan Wong (05:29):

That's really, I didn't know that you were previously because you've been at a line for more than 10 years now in the legal role, but you were at a line, you're saying

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Saren Chum (05:40):

As an hr? Yeah, before. Oh, wow. Yeah, about 13, 14 years ago, I was filling in for someone who was going on maternity leave. I kept my information and when this role opened up for legal, they contacted me to see if I was interested.

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Evan Wong (06:06):

Oh, wow. You must have done a good job if they're doing a callback, so good on you. All right. That's interesting. I'm glad

Saren Chum (06:13):

They did.

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Evan Wong (06:14):

Yeah, yeah, no, of course. Yeah, that's really good advice. And I know that you spent, again, 10 years in the legal department within the line, and you've gone from, I think you started out as a contracts admin and then stepped your way up through to Contracts manager and then legal operations became part of your title, and then now you're looking at broadly digital transformation. So your role has just gotten bigger and bigger and bigger, more and more strategic over the years, and I know today this whole podcast and webinars around workflow, I mean, how much has workflow been an enabler or a complimentary event to your growth in your career in the last few years? You obviously manage workflow now at Align, right? So how much of that has been aligned to your career?

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Saren Chum (07:10):

Yeah, it's just existing workflows to build new workflows. I think as you're finding efficient ways to streamline the process, not only are you learning, but there's also takeaways for the next time you're building a workflow. Sometimes there's pain points along the way, but there's also winning areas as well. But just taking the knowledge and just the background and just what we've learned and what you see that is working with the workflows, I think, and just taking that and being able to incorporate those takeaways in your next build, your next solution or I think it's just, it helps.

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Evan Wong (08:08):

Absolutely. So you currently lead, as I said, the workflow automation at Align, but before we get into the nitty gritty of what that looks like to help people understand what we mean when we talk about workflow, what are some of the workflows that you've seen being automated Align, whether that's you personally, but I know it's a much bigger effort of many people now across the organization, but what have you seen, what workflows have come out of your work in Align?

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Saren Chum (08:35):

Yeah, so before we move forward with more information on the workflows that we built, I just wanted to say that before building anything, our team actually conducts surveys and interviews with our business partners as well as legal and ask for feedback. We ask what can be improved and what are some of the pain points you're experiencing? We look at the volume of the contract, we look at the volume of each contract type and determine what can be automated with a self-service portal or workflow. We also pulled metrics and analytics and based on that data to help us determine whether we need to change our processes or our policies or both or build a workflow to help. So with that said, we automated to, I want to showcase two that we automated and built through Checkbox. The first process is our NDA workflow. We had somewhat of a lengthy and manual process when sending out our NDAs, it can sometimes take a day or to a few days to get our NDAs signed by both parties.

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(09:58):

We were able to implement an automated self-service portal for our requesters, reducing the review and turnaround time. So we've seen NDAs come back now through Checkbox within minutes rather than a day or even a few days. The second one that I wanted to highlight and showcase is a workflow that we built to help our business partners determine if their contracts require legal review. So we have new employees, or sometimes we have business requesters that are not dealing with contracts often. So when they do have a contract in place, they're lost or they don't know if they need to pull legal in. So we call this solution the material contract detector. So basically the requester comes into an intake form and they answer a series of questions, and based on their questions, the detector will provide a result letting them know if they need to send their contract for legal review or bypass legal. So this basically helps legal, it helps remove legal from unnecessary reviews or reduce legal touch points, and at the same time provide the business partners with information they need.

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Evan Wong (11:24):

Wow, very good. Two examples. I like the two examples because I think NDA is often the gateway into workflow. People understand the NDA and it's a good way to get used to it, but then you kind of explained another one, which is it's contract related, but it's not really what you would consider contract automation because you're not generating an agreement in your contract material, contract detector. You are just almost providing advice around where the legal team has drawn your risk threshold of what should go to legal and what hasn't. Right. So it's almost like it's again on the same line of creating more time for legal, but it's actually more sort of somewhere between contracts and advisory work.

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(12:10):

Okay. That's really interesting. Cool. And so those are truly great examples. And my follow question is particularly for the NDAs, and I know that you've done other contracting work as well at Align with Workflow. I also know that you have a CLM, right? And there's always that question, and I think there's a confusion for sure in the market of when do you do your contracting work in A CLM versus doing contracting work in a workflow automation tool, right? You are a great case study if you have both. You have a CLM, in fact, you had one before bringing on workflow, but now you manage some of your contracting workflows in your workflow system, not your CLM. Can you share a little bit as to why that's the case? What's your decisioning there?

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Saren Chum (13:00):

Yeah, so I think we can all agree that not all systems are a hundred percent perfect and do everything that we needed to do. There are gaps, challenges, and sometimes technical limitations, and sometimes there's a better way to do something. Just because we have a CLM, it doesn't mean that we have to create everything in CLM if it's not efficient. So our CLM is the source of truth. We input all our contracts through there, but if there are certain contract types that can be self-service that doesn't require approvals, the different levels of approvals, we take those contract types out of our CLM tool and we try to automate that through Checkbox so that way the front end user journey is better for our business partners, the experience, it's better for our business partners, but at the same time, it reduces the work from legal as well. So we automate, we have that automation through Checkbox. Once it's fully signed, executed, then we'll input that signed version into our CLM tool because it's the source of truth.

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Evan Wong (14:34):

Got it. That's really interesting. I think I'm hearing that more and more. I think CLM does a fantastic job at the repository and for the more modern ones, they do a whole bunch of interesting AI analytics, contract analytics, intelligence, and they help a lot with I think, heavily negotiated documents where you are sort of having an AI assistant perhaps to some of the redlining when it comes to playbooks and fallback clauses and clause libraries and the whole concept there. But what you are saying is if it's relatively low friction, low negotiated, it can be largely self-service contract, then it sits on the workflow side, it's just more flexible, easier to build, maintain, and the user experience is more natural.

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Saren Chum (15:20):

Right. And then, so we do have a process where, for example, if they do, if the counterparty wants to redline a contract, then it will be processed through our CLM tool, but if they accept the terms as is, we'll just sign our e-signatures and everything, e-signature processes through Checkbox, and I'll just complete the whole process within there.

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Evan Wong (15:49):

Very insightful. Thanks for sharing that. So I want to kind of talk about the journey now, your role specifically in leading workflow in a global organization, and I didn't even ask actually, how big is the Align business? It's a global business. How many potential business users can there be and what's the size of the legal team? I think that gives everyone a sense of scale.

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Saren Chum (16:11):

I don't have the scale. So we're a global company. We're trying to expand and train different members from the legal, and actually the quality regulatory assurance team falls under the legal department as well. We're trying to just expand the learning and training within the legal now, but hopefully expand it to align us globally. But I think, gosh, I would say we had a workshop and hacked on and there was about 20 people who participated

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Evan Wong (17:02):

Just in the workshop that you ran. Yeah, that's not the whole team though, right? The legal team?

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Saren Chum (17:07):

No, that's not the whole team. Yeah. Oh gosh,

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Evan Wong (17:13):

I won't hold you to it. Just guesstimation back.

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Saren Chum (17:15):

I would say probably about, gosh, over a hundred legal representatives. Yeah.

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Evan Wong (17:25):

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. No, that's helpful. I think there's so many different size legal teams, it's sort of helpful to know what kind of scale we're talking about here. So a hundred plus legal team, I think the aligned businesses in the tens of thousands of employees globally. So that's kind of what we're working with. So what does it actually look like then at the very, very beginning of implementing workflow, right? You were there at the very beginning, help understand what it's like going from zero, absolutely nothing to something. What does that look like when you first bring on workflow when you're implementing it?

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Saren Chum (18:00):

Yeah, so I mean, I think at the beginning of any workflow before implementing it, we ask ourselves what would we want the workflow to look like if we were able to design it in a perfect path, perfect workflow. We just have a model the diagram of okay, from start to finish, how would we want it to look? And then from there we build it according to the capabilities of course and functions of the tool.

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Evan Wong (18:41):

Okay, very cool. And so at the very beginning, I imagine it wasn't sort of a hundred plus legal team members involved. What was that starting squad, if you will, and what sort of resources did you commit at the beginning and has that grown over time? How does that look like at the very beginning in terms of people?

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Saren Chum (19:02):

Yeah, so I think at the beginning there was a little bit of a challenge. I think it's because the team didn't fully understand the no code, low-code concept. The team was a bit skeptical about the tool, and so therefore it was challenging to get them to learn and even use the tool. So what we, I think just to showcase and educate our legal team, we legal ops actually built a couple of workflows that was relevant to the legal team to showcase, so that way they can see how it impacts their workload or how it can help resolve their pain points. So after we showcase, the first one was the NDA process. So after we showcase the workflow and how we showed the back end of how to build, we showed the front end of the user experience and the user journey. I think that's when the legal team actually got excited about it and like, oh, okay, now I understand what this is. And it doesn't look hard to build. We don't need it to help us build. I mean, there's certain things that I myself still need to learn, but for the most part, 90% of the workflows you can do on your own, right? Yeah. So now after we showcased our first workflow, there was more interest in demand in building solutions. And so now the challenge for us is not even trying to win.

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(21:03):

The challenge for us is not having enough resources to meet the demand. So we have started triaging incoming solution requests based on impact and urgency, but in parallel, we're providing training to members within the legal team to help build solutions for their team and help build work close for their specific needs.

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Evan Wong (21:28):

I love that story and it's so cool. I think there's a few nuggets there. First is it really takes that first workflow to go live to show the art of the possible. And for something that, as you said, not everyone understands the concept of workflow or low-code and no-code, but as soon as the first workflow goes out live, people feel it, touch it, see it, and they understand it, and then all of a sudden their imagination goes wild and they realize, oh my God, we could use it for that and that and that. And it really does take that first thing to go out. And so I always recommend to people going on this journey pick something that isn't overly overly complicated, and I think that's why NDAs are overused, but still the first thing that people go to because it's simple enough and it's understandable enough and it's high volume enough to have that internal PR that you need to then really get the wheels turning.

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(22:20):

And then I love the fact that it grew to the point where now the constraint isn't winning the hearts of your stakeholders, it is actually fielding all of the requests that they have for the next workflow. That's a really cool story, and I've seen that happen time and time again with workflow. It's such a cool technology for that reason. And you mentioned that you had a hackathon recently. I want to talk a little bit about that. I think that's a really clever little tool to use in proliferating ideas within the organization as well and getting buy-in at scale and reinvigorating perhaps a tool that may have been in the organization for a few years. I know that you've been using Workflow for a few years now. Tell me a little bit about the hackathon recently. What did that entail? What did that look like? Who was involved? Just how does the hackathon work?

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Saren Chum (23:21):

So there was a lot of interest in Checkbox, and so with that, I was getting a lot of just questions from cross-functional teams. There's questions from sales, from internal audit, just from different teams reaching out, wanting to learn more about Checkbox. And within legal as well, it was more from legal from the different regional teams. So we thought, let's have a hackathon, like a workshop, a two day workshop where the first day consisted of just training, just showing the functionality. We had a Checkbox representative kind of build out a workflow to show everyone how to build a workflow, go over the different functionalities within Checkbox. The second day was the hackathon where we sent. After the first day, we sent the participants back with homework and we asked them, think of something that is a pain point for your team or for you and create a solution that you could think can help solve some of the pain points for your team. So they went off with the homework the next day. I was very surprised. Actually, some of the solutions that they created in one day was absolutely amazing. But so during the second day we just asked for volunteers to showcase what they built, and I was very surprised. Everyone was really engaged and interested and actually did their homework.

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(25:28):

We were a little bit nervous about it, but no, but it just showed that this tool was so easy enough to use that they were able to do it in one day, build the work for one day.

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Evan Wong (25:41):

That's so cool. That's so cool. Thanks for sharing that. And I know that there was a lot of visibility. I know that Lynn, who was one of the VPs at Align, was also in attendance. I think he was there for the full two days is what I heard and was and building as well. So it wasn't just your everyday attorney or legal ops. It went all the way up to the VP level and he was super engaged, which was awesome. Yeah,

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Saren Chum (26:09):

He has built, I think a couple of solutions just playing around with it on his own time. Yeah,

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Evan Wong (26:15):

That's so cool. I love it when deputy or associate general counsels and GCs and CLOs get their hands on these tools and actually get into the nitty gritty. It's really cool the fact that they work.

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Saren Chum (26:30):

Our executive admin to our general council was also an attendee for the workshop, and she built this intake form to help manage what's coming through for our general counsel. So she was very ecstatic about Checkbox as well. And I think she's certified, and I actually have a meeting with her tomorrow. She has more questions on it.

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Evan Wong (27:00):

Very cool. And outside of the hackathon for a minute, what does your role look like day to day when you are leading a workflow automation effort at an organization? What do you do? What's your role responsibility? You just talked about having to support someone tomorrow with some of the questions on the build. What is your day-to-day in this role?

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Saren Chum (27:23):

So yeah, I play a lot of different roles within Checkbox, not just I have other responsibilities outside of Checkbox, but within Checkbox I'm still involved with building and maintaining some of the solutions, continuous improvements, but also I'm training other members, the legal team, and also just answering inquiries and questions from other members outside of the legal team from our cross-functional teams. Yeah, it's all around providing guidance, providing advice. There was one where I had a corporate communication workflow that I built a sample like a workflow just to showcase how Checkbox and how the workflow can help with their review process, like the marketing review process. And they were happy with the workflow and they wanted to build upon it, but I mean it looked to them, it was like, oh, this is very easy to do, and it wasn't overwhelming or intimidating that someone on their team can just pick it up.

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Evan Wong (28:57):

Yeah, very cool. And tell us a bit about the different stakeholders that you work with as part of running this programme. It's obviously a very cross-functional, as you just alluded to, cross-functional role. I'm assuming you're not just, you're sort of like an evangelist internally for the tool. You're answering questions for the tool, you're building on the tool, but I imagine there's a whole bunch of work as well around maybe gathering requirements around the business. You mentioned prioritization earlier. Who actually are the stakeholders that you work with? How far up does it go? How far does visibility go in terms of the C L O or maybe the VPs that we were just talking about earlier? Who do you work with, maybe as the stakeholder?

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Saren Chum (29:46):

Yeah, so since implementing Checkbox, I've worked with or have answered questions related to Checkbox to our cross Al teams consisting of it, course, corporate communications, sales, internal audits, attorneys. Of course within the legal team, there's probably a few others that I'm missing, but with the buzz going on with Checkbox, more and more teams are reaching out to me to learn about Checkbox. But with the material contract detector, I think every workflow is unique and different, and there's different stakeholders. So if I'm helping with, for example, there's a solution that we call, it's like the entity management portal. So that's a different team that I work with, which is these corporate securities team. When I worked on the material contract detector, that's another set of individuals that I'm working with. So yeah, I'm just working with different cross-functional teams depending on the solutions that I'm building.

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Evan Wong (31:12):

You must be one of the most popular people out of line. You go around and you help people solve problems that they just are so done with. Yeah,

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Saren Chum (31:21):

So for example, sales reached out to me, this was probably about over a year ago, but they basically laid out their process and I was able to tell them like, okay, well I think you can do this, fill in this gap, or there's some workarounds, right? And that's the good thing about Checkbox is that sometimes they have existing tools that they can reach out to their account managers or technical account reps and help ask for their support. But sometimes you have to pay more in order to do custom changes or add more features or whatever it is. But with Checkbox, I mean, that's the one good thing is you can fill in those gaps with Checkbox if needed.

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Evan Wong (32:16):

Yeah, yeah, it's such, the whole part of it is about managing and maintaining internally. So there's costs and the speed to delivery and the speed of change is all within your own organization's hands. So that's really cool. We talked a lot about the success and everything that's gone well, but obviously it's not an easy journey. I can't imagine that to be the case. What are some of the challenges that you've come across in leading a workflow automation effort, and how did you overcome 'em?

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Saren Chum (32:52):

Some of the challenges I think, well, I think we touched a little bit on it where at the beginning we didn't have, our users were skeptical. I think more education, more communication on it, showcasing a workflow that is relevant based on their role or their responsibilities. I think those are key, important, important steps to take to help 'em understand. So that way you reduce the challenge, right? There's not, what is that word I'm looking for? I guess there's no more skepticism on using the tool.

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Evan Wong (33:55):

Okay, so I guess at the very beginning was a challenge, and I guess that's related to change. And you're saying that education is sort of the main way that you got through. I think before we mentioned as well, obviously just getting to that first tool as soon as possible and not being too, because I think you have done a great job at Align in that your time to the first workflow was pretty quick. But I know that working with so many different legal departments, sometimes as legal teams who might be entering phases like user acceptance testing where you're really testing with end users. We as guest legal professionals tend to be trained to be perfectionists and get things right, and sometimes perfection is the enemy of progress. And so you are kind of making these infinite versions like one dot 97 and then it never gets out and then you never make it to that boom like breaking point that you talk about, right?

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Saren Chum (34:55):

Yeah. So my rule, and I think my team knows this too, it's like it's okay if it's not perfect as long as it's 70%, 80%, and I mean in some cases, maybe even 60% depending on what it is, just roll it out. Because even though you think you need to make it perfect or you think it's perfect, when you roll it out, there's going to be more input, more feedback, more changes that you need to make. So having it implemented, I think sooner rather than later, you can start improving the process, streamline it, but just continue collecting what needs to be changed, continuous improvement. So I always tell my team, try to, let's get it out. It doesn't have to be perfect as long as it's at least 70%. We're always, there's that always constant improvement that we'll need to make constant change and we can make it along the way.

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Evan Wong (36:05):

That's really good advice. Again, I think if you ask, things can always be improved. I think people with a continuous improvement mindset understand that there's always ways we can improve, make things better. And so if you ask for feedback, it's important to understand that it's easy to give feedback. It's almost so easy to, oh, can you make it like this? Or those requests can come very easily from people who aren't the people who have to implement it. And so I think having a framework to understand what is the must haves versus the should haves and the nice to haves and having that bit of a framework really helps prioritize what is making up that 60, 70% that you talk about. And what probably is that 30 to 40% that we could leave as a phase two or phase three after we go to deploy. Yeah, so that's good.

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(36:58):

Alright, so we talked about you leading the efforts, who you work with, your day-to-day, some of the challenges, what's your relationship with your workflow automation vendor? What do you do yourself and what does your vendor do and how do you get the best leverage out of that relationship? I think that's also a really interesting point for many people who are working with legal tech vendors, not just in the workflow space, but there's definitely some nuances to workflow automation vendors. How do you get the most out of that relationship? Who's doing, what's the touch point? How often do you meet? Shed a bit of light on that.

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Saren Chum (37:33):

Yeah, so we have a designated contact person that we meet with on a weekly cadence. And during our calls we go through any questions that my team has regarding their solutions, regarding their apps that they're building, and we discuss what's the best approach to provide the best journey for our business partners. So I tell my team, build what you can or just leave the questions for our Checkbox representatives. If there's something that you tested it out on your own, you tried different options and it's still not working the way that you want it, leave those questions for our Checkbox rep. The reason why I say that is because she's only one person, and if we are asking her to look into every question that we have, it takes away from her being able to provide answers to the very important questions.

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(38:57):

And then also, it's also learning. I like to figure it out first before I ask a question. With anything I do, if my manager asks me to look, do something, or even though I don't know the answer, I'm going to go and try to find the answer before I provide, answer his question. So at least I've looked into it. And the same thing for Checkbox, you just have to play around with it, play around with functionalities, do a few different scenarios, see what works, and then if it doesn't, then you reach out to your Checkbox contact person. And it's been very successful. I mean, our calls, our weekly calls have been very helpful for our team and we record our sessions. So if we have to go back and we can go back and look at it if we don't understand or still have additional questions, very helpful. Then we also, yeah, the good news now is we also have a support person in the same time zone, so that really helps a lot too.

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Evan Wong (40:15):

Yeah, absolutely. Last question for you. So much of legal ops is about achieving and improving processes and generating value, but a big part of it is also about being able to communicate that value to be able to tell stories and really take that value and make it visible. So what kind of stories and value have you been able to tell because of the work that you've done in workflow? What's the go-to success story or R O I stats that you can share publicly?

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Saren Chum (40:51):

Yeah, so I mean, one of the values that I can, or ROIs that I can share with you is I mentioned earlier our NDA process. It was somewhat lengthy and annual and just having the signed copy can take a few days rather than minutes with the new workflow. But since the rollout of 2021, that's when we rolled out the, we automated close to eight NDA for our North America and region, and because of that data, and we are expanding it, the same process to our AMEA region. Along with that, we are working with other contract types that can be self-service. So we're working currently on a couple of contract types within Checkbox with a similar workflow.

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Evan Wong (42:00):

Yeah, very cool. I remember when it first went out, there was a buzz all the way up to your C-suite globally was like, Hey, we finally, we solved the NDA. So it was pretty cool to see that project make its way all the way up.

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Saren Chum (42:19):

And the thing is, when you roll out a new workflow or anything new, you don't hear the positive feedback from, but you always hear what is wrong with it or what you can do better. But I mean, with the NDA process, we didn't really get any negative feedback. So to me, I take that as good. Right, because you don't hear anything, because you'll hear something if it's bad or something goes wrong. Yeah,

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Evan Wong (42:57):

That's true. Well, thank you so much for your time. This has been a really delightful conversation and I love the depth that we've gone into. Hopefully this was insightful for everyone who's listening live, but also listening posts as well. But Saren, thank you so much for your time. You've been amazing. Congratulations on all the success so far, and I look forward to seeing all the other sorts of workflows and stories in the future. And at some point I will need to try that fried rice as well. Okay. Now that I've heard about it,

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Saren Chum (43:28):

Yeah, you have to let me know when you're visiting, and then I'll definitely make it for you

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Evan Wong (43:32):

Winning. All right, sounds good. Alright, well thanks so much and to everyone else, have a fantastic rest of your day. Thanks Rin.

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Saren Chum (43:39):

Thank you, Evan, for having me. Have a great day.

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Evan Wong (43:42):

All right, bye-bye.

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Saren Chum (43:43):

Bye.

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Evan Wong (43:45):

Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Go With the Workflow. If you found it valuable, you can subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app like Spotify or Apple Podcast. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leave a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast too. That's all for now, so we'll see you in the next episode.